A Very Candid Conversation with Bobby Caldwell

Jeff Cramer: What made you pick up your sticks?

Bobby Caldwell: Gosh, how did I start playing drums? When I was a child probably around, I wanna say probably 10 or 11 years old is when I had pretty much decided I was gonna play drums. There was other instruments around at the time that were popular. You’re always influenced by, if everybody was playing the kazoo those days, at 14, you go, “Wow, you know, I might play kazoo,” so that’s pretty much how it started and I just had an interest in it. I used to go see all these bands, you know, that were much older than me.

I mean I could scarcely get in. I’d have to get my mother to drive me to these dances and walk me in because theywere 9^th graders, you know, high school kids, and the bands that were playing these dances and I’m this little guy in the 6^th grade, you know, [laughter] so that’s pretty much how it started.

JC: Okay, going from there, how did you first get the attention of Duane Allman and Johnny Winter? 

BC: Well, that’s an interesting question. It’s a very long answer that I’ll try to make brief. I had been trying to get a break after paying my dues in Florida with a band called Noah’s Ark. I was going to New York and doing all these things, you know, and I was in high school and after several years of paying my dues what happened was, on a very hot summer afternoon, this guy that worked for Noah’s Ark called me on the phone. He said, “Hey, how would you like to come over and jam with Johnny Winter?” and I said, “I wouldn’t,” and he said, “Oh come on,man,” he said, “Just come over and jam a little while with ’em,” you know, and I’m not really big into jamming and that was really a reason.

JC: Okay, that’s interesting you say that because the two live albums you do with Johnny and the Allmans have a lot of jamming.

BC: Yeah, well, there’s no choice in that case. But just going in to jam with people, like if someone called me and they go, “You wanna come down with me to this place tonight and jam,” I’m not interested, so I wasn’t interested then, and if you wanna play songs and arrangements and this and that and that’s great. So anyway, he just persuaded me to come over. I went over to this house and all these people were in their car standing around and it was at this guy’s parents’ house, and my friend Dave who had called me, I said, “Well how long do you think it will be or –?” “Oh I don’t know, you know, not too long,” you know, and it’s blazing outside and people are coming in and out and in and out and I’m thinking, “What in the world?! Okay fine,” you know, so I’m still standing there, you know, and after an hour and a half goes by I said, “Are you – Dave, do you know when is this gonna happen? Because I’m gonna just go home and take my girlfriend out and whatever,” and we went around it. “Oh no, Bobby, stay, just stay, come on, it’s fine, you know, it won’t be long,” you know, and so more time went by and I still didn’t go in and people are, like, coming in and out — and I’m like, “What in heaven’s name?!” So finally he comes up to me and says, “Okay, ready for you” and whatever. Well at this point I was hot, somewhat frustrated with the whole thing of it and so I went in and as I stepped through the doorway there was [Johnny’s managers] Steve Paul, Teddy Slatus,  [musicians] Edgar Winter, Johnny Winter, Rick Derringer, Randy Hobbs and maybe a roadie or two and I said hi to ’em all, you know, and I went over and I sat down on this set of drums that wasn’t very good and I just started playing this, like, blistering sort of drum pattern and they all just all of a sudden started playing with me and so I’m thinking, “Oh okay, yeah, this is fine, you know? Whatever, I’m here, let’s do it,” you know and about 30 minutes later it comes to this screeching halt and Johnny says,“I’d like for you to join my band,” and Edgar who’s standing behind him goes, “I’d like you to join my band.”

JC:[Laughter] Okay.

BC:And so it really went like that. But here’s the part that is the real part of it is that none of this was a jam at all. All of it was an audition, only I wasn’t told that [laughter] so that’s how it happened, and I joined Johnny and Rick and them and we were off to the races.

JC: You started off an album, Johnny Winter And Live, that is very energetic by your drum groove opening for “Good Morning, Little School Girl.” [To listen to “Good Morning, Little School Girl,” click here.]

BC: Uh-huh.

JC:The band is playing with so much energy and there are these great covers of famous songs. For instance, when you get to “Great Balls of Fire,” you’re not even missing the piano that’s usually there, you know?

BC: That’s right. That’s right. Well that’s a lot to do with Rick’s guitar playing and that’s also a lot to do with Randy Hobbs’ bass playing and me because Randy Hobbs was a great player. I mean he’s a guy that you wouldn’t even think probably twice about in the pantheon of great bass players but this guy could really play in the groove and so a lot of that is why that – you’re very observant about that and a lot of this is why this came off like that because there was a lot of fire and we could play anything.

JC: Around that time how did you get to be jamming with the Allmans on the Fillmore Concerts?

BC: I had been playing with the Allmans way before I met Johnny.

JC: Okay, let’s talk about that, then.

BC: I had been playing with the Allman Brothers off-and-on when they were virtually unknown and I had become quite good friends with the band and so when I joined Johnny I ran into Duane and the band in New York and when I told him what had happened – that I hadgotten on with Johnny –, he was just elated. He was so – Duane was the kinda guy that was … he was happy for you, and so my relationship had gone sometime before that.

BC:Well, here’s the strange part about that. When that Fillmore East album – are you talking about The Allmans Live at The Fillmore East?

JC: Yes, yes.

BC: When that was recorded, Johnny Winter And was headlining. A lot of people don’t know that.

JC: No, that’s interesting, because I even know it was still edited down to make a double album but it indicates that the Allmans, who were not headliners, were on stage for quite some time.

BC:Yeah, they were. It was Johnny Winter And, the Allman Brothers Band and the Elvin Bishop Group.

JC: Okay, yeah, what a line-up.

BC: And it was sold out. You couldn’t have squeezed anybody into that place, backstage, on the roof, the basement, in the front, I mean – and I played with the Allman Brothers and then I went back, changed my clothes, waited about an hour and came back out and played with Johnny.

JC: Right, so basically you’re with the Allmans throughout the whole entire gig and then you went to [laughter] Johnny.

BC: That’s correct. I played. I played.

JC: Wow, because I’ve heard live albums and, wow, both would take a lot out of a performer.

BC: And that all happened. That was all. It was a fantastic night and that Fillmore East with the Allmans was unbelievable. I mean even now when I listen to it. A lot of people are big, big live album fans and, “What do you rank about this and that? Who do you rank…” and they rank the Johnny Winter And Live album the first one. But that Allman Brothers, they were on fire that night. Well, I mean, it was the whole weekend.

JC: Yes.

BC:So I mean it, just, oh man. I just can’t tell you. It was just phenomenal. And I was just playing percussion as I always did with them and then on a few songs I would play drums on “Midnight Rider,” a few different things.

JC: Ok. Now I guess the question is what happened with the Johnny Winter And Band? Like how could it…?

BC: How could it be going such great guns and all of a sudden …

JC: It stopped.

BC: Right. Part of it was – part of it was drug use. I mean everybody in those times, Jeff, and this is not to justify it or to say it’s right or wrong. I don’t personally give a shit. All things in life are just experiences. Some of them are pleasant and some are unpleasant but you don’t know until you try it and that’s fine. No judgment. I think by that time Johnny was tired. He had had several years of just unbelievable amounts of scrutiny and people pouring all over him andgiving him no space and this and that so he just needed to take some time off. That was basically what it was. It was several factors.

JC: From there I guess you focused on Captain Beyond?

BC: That’s right.

 

JC: Ok. And how did that form?

BC: Well Rhino and Lee Dorman I had known. I had known Rhino several years because we were both from Florida and I had met Lee when he was with Iron Butterfly and Iron Butterfly were one of the biggest dollar concert attractions in the world. They had approached me about would I be interested in getting a band together and when Johnny Winter And stopped I thought, “May as well.” And so that’s what happened. I went out there and we started putting the band together.

JC: How did you get Rod Evans?

BC: Rod was there before I got there. They had met him through someone and that’s how that happened. I think that happened through the Butterfly’s management that he was, his number was passed to Lee or something. I think that’s what happened.

JC: Ok, now you wrote the lyrics to that album.

BC: Many of them. Some I didn’t.

JC: The thing is that Captain Beyond was unlike what all four of you had done before. How did you come up with it?

BC: Well the vision of Captain Beyond – odd time signatures, the arranges – most of that stuff was me,because long before, long before, years before I was – and I’ve always been a jazz guy and I remember saying to Butch Trucks one night in Boston or going down to see Elvin Jones or somebody and I said – I was kind of whining about how, “I just want to do some really creative music like you cats are doing. I love playing what we’re doing but …” and he said, “Oh just make all the money you can and then you don’t need to worry about it and you can do whatever you want.”

So I had brought all of these ideas I had been sitting on a long time into the band if I could get it together so that’s what happened and then we started experimenting with different things and that’s how it happened. Rod being a superb lyricist. I mean this guy is phenomenal. The only person I know that can write like him is the late Keith Relf from the Yardbirds. It’s just spectacular. Even now when I listen and Rod wrote “Mesmerization Eclipse.” He wrote “Armworth.” He wrote something else I forget so it just started coming together.

JC: I really love that drum opening beginning for “Dancing Madly Backwards.”

BC: You know Jeff that’s a fluky thing and I could tell you that was a pattern that I could play at any given day even now or I could play different patterns similar or different than that right now not even thinking about it because I’d just be fooling around and I remember sitting down many times going [humming the drum opening of “Dancing Madly Backward”]. It’s not a big deal but then when we decided to put it on the front of the song and Rhino came up with the [hums the guitar riff of “Dancing Madly Backward”]. So it all started coming together. It was a real magical collaboration really. [To hear “Dancing Madly Backwards” live, click here.]

I mean most of that music was all – the Captain Beyond was really Rhino and me and Rod. I mean Lee, I love Lee. I miss him a lot. He’s a fantastic man. I used to live with him. But if you’re talking about the contributions – he would tell you if he was sitting here – that was really who were behind that stuff, but we included people’s names because it was the proper thing to do or so we thought. Are we the Monkees? Hell, everybody gets their name on it. Well, there’s only two people over here doing all the writing. It all worked out.

JC: Now you went on tour and everything but you wouldn’t be back for the next album. What happened?

BC: We went on a huge tour.

JC: Right.

BC: Major tour, six months. There was some kind of standoff about something silly I’m sure. I can’t really remember what it was. That’s how ridiculous it was. But Larry was attempting to power play me and I said, “I don’t think so.”

JC: Larry – we’re talking about Rhino?

BC: I always call Rhino Larry. It was something – it was very petty. Honestly it really didn’t 0mean a whole lot so I just thought “Ok. Well look. I don’t want to sit here and fight or argue about it. I don’t know what we’re arguing about so I’m just going to take a break from the band and you find somebody else to play and if we can resolve this then maybe I’ll come back.” That was what it was. That’s what happened.

JC: Now I understand you did come back for the tour when they toured behind the second album.

BC:Yes. That’s right. I did come back. Because Captain Beyond was the four of us. That’s it. That was the band. I did come back. And I wanted to come back. I put a lot of time and energy and creative juice into that stuff. I wanted to reap the rewards of it because this was an experiment of mine remember. I was thinking to myself – remember when I was telling you about back with Butch and all that? – and I’d been thinking, “If I can just get the right thing together.” So a lot of it – there was a personal interest in it. It really wasn’t money. It was really just thecreative part of it like “A-ha! I knew this would be right.” I knew this would be great if I was given the chance to do it so it was really that kind of thing.

JC: And, like Johnny Winter And, it broke up while the momentum was going …

BC:What happened was Rod walked in. We were getting ready to prepare for another album and Rodwalked in at the rehearsal hall after Christmas break and said, “I’m leaving the group.” Everybody was in disbelief literally. There had never been any hard feelings with Rod. There was never any shouting matches. There was no – we couldn’t really figure out why. So that’s what happened.

JC: Ok. You then reteam with both Rick Derringer and Johnny Winter. Let’s start up with the All American Boy album. Now I know that Rick played a lot of the instruments with you only on drums for that album.

BC: Correct.

JC: Ok. How did that come about?

BC: Well, Rick just asked me, said, “I’ve got an offer to do a solo record deal and how would youlike to play on it?” That was it. We did it out in Colorado. The two of us really were there most of the time. It was a very interesting experience actually because we had a lot of fun. Caribou Ranch is a special – was a special place. All the food was catered. You had these luxurious log cabins for rooms. I mean it’s in the mountains. It was just stunning actually.

JC: There’s also one track that I liked that was recorded during the All-American Boy sessions, which later appeared on his next one Spring Fever: “Rock.”

BC: Yeah.

JC: I like the fills. Were you actually there when Chick Corea played keyboards on that track?

BC: I wasn’t there if that happened. The Spring Fever album, that’s the one that has that …

JC: That pretty boy image. Yes.

BC: Like Raquel. Yeah. I’m with you. [To listen to “Rock”, click here.]

JC: You also played on Johnny Winter’s Saints and Sinners. Where are you exactly on that album?

BC:Well it’s been a while since I listened to it. It’s only a few tracks. I think I played on “Stone County.” I played on – there was a couple others. Did that up in New York.

JC:Ok. Then I guess Armageddon happened, or was there something in between that?

BC: Well, all of this kind of was going – all of this was going on simultaneously. Ok? It was all going on simultaneously. And in other words it wasn’t like one thing ended and the next one started. Things were overlapping and people are calling you and it’s like if your friends called you and there’s several, there’s three or four things that people are asking if you’d like to do on Friday night. There’s just multiple things that are going on. So I ran into Keith Relf in Los Angeles and I asked him what he was doing. He said he had come to LA to put a new band together and he had two of his band mates with him, Martin Pugh and Louis Cennamo, and it’s interesting. I said, “Who’s going to be playing drums on this?” “Don’t know yet.” I was thinking kind of like, “Here’s a guy that I’ve always really admired.” I had seen the Yardbirds many times.  I thought, “Holy crap. I know how great this band’s going to be.” What happened was we left – goodbye or “here’s my number” or something – and a few weeks later the phone rang and it was Keith and so we got together and played and boom. There you go.

JC: It’s interesting that Armageddon is closer to Captain Beyond than the Yardbirds

BC: I think so. I mean it was – it was a great band. Spectacular band. Yeah. It was a great band and just a bunch of great people and I loved all of those guys and Martin I still talk to. But yeah that’s what happened and we were off to the races, and we went to England and recorded the first album.

JC: But that would only be one album that line-up did.

BC: That’s right.

JC: What happened then? How did that fall apart?

BC: It was a lot of problem for Keith’s children. Keith had two young sons and we were living in LA but we were back in London and I think he was very torn about what to do. He didn’t want to leave without his boys so it was a real conundrum. I mean it was but we had full backing from the record company. They would have done anything for us but the management is what sunk that ship.

It wasn’t Keith’s problem, which could be part of it, but the manager: we had was a chap out of New York and he disappeared and we couldn’t do anything. The record company couldn’t doanything legally. We couldn’t go make any decisions on our own for fear of being sued. We couldn’t do this because we had signed this management deal. You’re screwed. That’s it. So it was really the management that finally sunk that ship and Martin and I went back to LA and in time it just sort of ground to a halt because we couldn’t go anywhere. We couldn’t get anything going. It was really a drag. There’s a lot of work that goes into those bands – I mean enormous amounts of work – and so for someone or some type of something that disables it, it’s a big blow.

JC: Actually one thing I wanted to get to is that Keith’s voice reminds me of Jon Anderson on Yes in that one. He doesn’t sound the same like he did with the Yardbirds?

BC: You think so? Probably that was the way it was mixed. His voice should have been EQed a little bit better.

JC: Yeah. I just noticed it sounded a little different. Like I wouldn’t have recognized it was Keith from the Yardbirds if the credits weren’t there, you know?

BC: Yeah. It was probably lacking some of those mid to low end on it. I hear you. [To hear Armageddon’s “Buzzard”, please click here.]

JC:So I guess the next thing was the reformed Captain Beyond.

BC: Yeah. We decided to try to put the band back together without Rod and we tried out a host of people and finally settled on one. It was never the same.

Warner Brothers wanted the band back and we went out, we were busy and people were still responding and happy and so on, but it wasn’t the same band, so by the late ’70s it had pretty much stopped.

JC: Yeah, ’cause no offense to the other singer Willy Daffern, but I agree with you, it was not the same. Rod I hear actually disappeared. Did you ever talk to him again?

BC: I still to talk Rod. Yeah.

JC: You still do?

BC: Oh sure.

JC: Oh, ’cause I hear he’s been a hard-to-find guy from what I understand.

BC: You won’t be able to find him either. That’s the way he wanted it, but he’s doing very well andhe’s very happy and he was just a tremendous talent. I can’t say enough about him.

JC: Ok. What did you  do after Captain Beyond?

BC: Well, what I did was put together something with Martin Pugh and we almost had a million dollar deal from Capitol and this would be about ’83, ’84 and then after, without going in the reason it didn’t happen, then I started my own band after that and spent several years doing that and then my parents got sick and when my parents got sick in the early ‘90s I was recording with people out there and doing stuff but I had to come back to Florida. Came back to Florida and did my duties with my family and I was honored to do it and that’s pretty much how that happened. And about 1999 Rhino called me and asked me if I’d like to put the band back together and I said, “I don’t think so, Rhino.” I didn’t feel like, as much as I love Larry, I didn’t feel like it was much of a good business idea. We were magical as writing partners. As musical writing partners, whew, we could create things. But I wasn’t so sure that Larry was in the right place in order to go into doing this and I reluctantly agreed and we did it and it failed and then that’s what happened and that’s when we did – Rhino and I wrote “Night Train Calling.” Have you heard that tune?

JC: No. I’ve not heard it.

BC: Oh well you should hear those songs. It’s called “Night Train Calling” on YouTube [readers can hear it by clicking here] and “Be as You Were” [readers can hear it by clicking here] and another one’s called “Gotta Move” [reader can hear it by clicking here].It was kind of a four song little … it really wasn’t … it really wasn’t finished to really sell and somebody put itout there but it was some of the last stuff that Larry and I had a chance to work on. But I think they’re pretty good songs. So that brings us back to present day.

JC: Speaking of present day, I see on your website that you’re a minister.

BC: I have a Masters in Metaphysics. Yeah. I am a metaphysical minister.

JC: What is metaphysics?

BC: Well let’s just say, Jeff, metaphysics is to deal with things that are beyond the typical or what you would normally do. It may require prayer, meditation, and things of that nature to try to create a positive situation or create the situation you want. It’s a vast topic of universal law but most people don’t know it but what you think is what you get. It’s a fact. I mean, you’ve got friends of yours and they’re always miserable and they’re always unhappy because that’s how theythink. That’s what you attract because everybody … if I could tell you this real quick so you can hear how this works. Every human being has a soul. It’s like an antennae. It’s a frequency and the more love that the frequency carries, the higher the frequency is. The lower the frequency usually denotes less love within the soul. So when you’re dealing with high frequencies like when you see pictures of angels when you’re a kid at the church and this and that and they’re always lit up around, that’s because that’s that level of frequency they’re emanating. It’s the love they carry and so that’s how it works. You want to stay in that high frequency of love and being positive and cutting out all of those things with different folks that even in areas of cities it’s very negative energy because it’s very low and people cannot pull themselves away from that and go into the higher meaning of life. Because you can bring to yourself what you want. You can bring it. You just have to have such a passion with your emotions and your thought that you will actually make it materialize. Let me tell you this real quick.

JC: Ok.

BC: This is years before I had that break with Johnny when I went to that audition. I knew I wasgoing to get a break. I knew it. I didn’t know how it was going to happen, Jeff. I didn’t know who it was going to be with, where it was going to be, when it was going to be. I didn’t know anything. I knew it was coming to me and I would sit on the edge of my bed at night. I would go out with my girlfriend and come home or I’d come back from a gig and be exhausted and go, “God I’m tired and one of these days it’s coming to me. Opportunity is going to come to me.” That’s all I thought about. It’s called the like attracts like. That’s what metaphysics is. It’s about how to use your own cosmic inward power everyone has but don’t know it to try to create your life the way you want essentially. I hope that helps.

JC: It does.

BC:I could tell you things. I mean I’ve been into esoterics and all of that field of stuff that would – you wouldn’t believe actually. You would because I’m not lying to you but it’s another – it’s sort of a parallel track with my life in music here. And of course I don’t know if Kim told you but I’m – we’ve reformed Captain Beyond now.

JC: I’ve heard something about it. I know that there was a recent Texas concert with the original line-up that was re-released.

BC: That was a bootleg that was sort of re-mastered if you will and legitimately put out. It’s gottena lot of interest but the interest in Captain Beyond is huge. It just does not stop. It turns over every 10 years. I mean it’s phenomenal because the music is legitimate and you don’t hear that music and say, “Oh this sounds like so andso.” It’s not going to happen and I say that with pride, but not to sound egocentric, but yeah, there’s so much call to hear the music presented and so I thought, “Ok. This is the last chance to do it. If I can find the right people to do it I can play it in the spirit it needs to be played.” They’re not trying to be somebody they aren’t but to bring the music to people who love the songs, what’s the harm, and so I’m building a really great band.

Funny enough, Jeff, the guitar player has been playing with Rhino like the last three years of his life. Yeah. I mean it’s not ironic and he’s a real Rhino sort of – I hear it like you hear it Larry kind of guy.

So we’re booked to do some things in Europe and we’re getting some other things together and we’re going to do a new album and that may happen before year’s end so there’s a lot going on. And listen, I have a lot of music left in me before I stop so I figure we’ll put some years into it. Let’s make it a success. Let’s do something everybody can be proud of and have fun doing and then everybody can do whatever they want to do. I mean so it’s kind of where it is at the moment.